Some developers here get "rotated" to tech support.  Developers who are transferred to tech support don't do much programming anymore.  These developers are not happy.  They want interesting and challenging problems to solve.  Management has decided that they will budget for these developers to pursue Microsoft development certifications.  Discuss.

It depends on how busy they are playing tech support. If it is somewhat slow and they can use the downtime to study, then it is a pretty good deal. If the developers wanted the certifications, they would probably have to study on their own at home. The nice thing is it sounds like the company is picking up the tab for the tests and training material. They could always get the certification from the company and then bail. :)

Is this the managers way of saying "You're not a good programmer"?  Or is this something  to gain experience in the company?  What's the motivation for this?

 

brettdavis4:

They could always get the certification from the company and then bail. :)

 

My question is, why not just bail now?  If I was moved to tech support and wasn't happy because I wanted to be programming, I'd be looking for a new job.

taylonr:

Is this the managers way of saying "You're not a good programmer"?  Or is this something  to gain experience in the company?  What's the motivation for this?

If that were the case, then presumably the developers will get rotated back to development eventually, and should stop complaining.

If it's not the case, then they should definatly bail.

taylonr:

Is this the managers way of saying "You're not a good programmer"?  Or is this something  to gain experience in the company?  What's the motivation for this?

brettdavis4:

They could always get the certification from the company and then bail. :)

 

My question is, why not just bail now?  If I was moved to tech support and wasn't happy because I wanted to be programming, I'd be looking for a new job.

 

There are a few reasons for staying:

• The company would be picking up the tab for the tests and maybe the training.
• Maybe they'll go back to programming after they get certified. 
• It depends on how long they've been at this job and past jobs.  If the person has a history of job hoping, it might hurt their chances for a job down the road.

Give them access to your source depository and call them 'problem management'. Teach the other developers that whenever a harrassed ex-dev tech support walks in with a huge smile it's time to run.

djork:

Some developers here get "rotated" to tech support. [...] Management has decided that they will budget for these developers to pursue Microsoft development certifications.  Discuss.

When you say developers, I assume that means they already have a degree in Computer Science, Engineering, or some other related post-secondary Science degree.  That's almost always true in Canada, and I would suspect it would be mostly true in Europe as well (yes, there are exceptions for this..).  If that is the case I would be insulted with their decision to move to tech support, and get MS certification.  I'd be looking for a new job too.

skippy:

When you say developers, I assume that means they already have a degree in Computer Science, Engineering, or some other related post-secondary Science degree.

 

Why? Since when is a degree required to be a developer?

MasterPlanSoftware:

skippy:

When you say developers, I assume that means they already have a degree in Computer Science, Engineering, or some other related post-secondary Science degree.

 

Why? Since when is a degree required to be a developer?

Are you serious? People without college degrees lack the proper mindset for good development. They haven't been taught the theory, just the practice, which makes them little more than parrots. They might know what do do, but they don't know why it's the right way.

MasterPlanSoftware:

Why? Since when is a degree required to be a developer?

 

Someone without a college degree is not a software developer, only a "coder". He or she might know how to code and implement things, but probably lacks the ablity to see the "big picture".

bstorer:

People without college degrees lack the proper mindset for good development.

 

That's funny, I would argue people who are stupid enough to think you need to spend loads of money on college just to get a decent job, when other people don't spend the money and get the same, or better job would be the ones who lack the mindset. 

Not understanding ROI is pretty common around here, but you would think more people in RL would have a better understanding.

bstorer:

They haven't been taught the theory, just the practice, which makes them little more than parrots.

Yes, O notation is very valuable, and cannot be gathered from studying on your own. Anyone who believes this is pretty goddamn stupid.

bstorer:

They might know what do do, but they don't know why it's the right way.

Interesting take. I see a lot more of exactly the opposite around this forum and in RL.

DrJokepu:

Someone without a college degree is not a software developer, only a "coder". He or she might know how to code and implement things, but probably lacks the ablity to see the "big picture".

 

Really? How valuable was that first degree you got?

Hows that working out for you?

skippy:

If that is the case I would be insulted with their decision to move to tech support, and get MS certification.  I'd be looking for a new job too.

OTOH, a lot of developers (and managers of those developers) have a severe lack of perspective on the day-to-day problems faced by their customers.  And I don't just mean bugs, but "why did the product get built that way?  That's dumb."  Some people practically pride themselves on this lack of perspective... I have a lot of contempt for those kind of people.

Plus, a good tech support person has an incredible breadth of knowledge about the product compared to most developers, who tend to develop a much deeper, but narrower, knowledge of some part of the product.  Until they move to a different component and forget much of what they know about the first component.  This isn't a criticism of developers, it's just the nature of the jobs.

Doesn't mean I think devs should be rotated into tech support for a significant length of time.  But walking a mile in someone else's shoes (be it tech support, QA, or even (shudder) sales) can be very enlightening.

MasterPlanSoftware:

Since when is a degree required to be a developer?

 

I didn't say it was required, but at least here in Canada it's by far the majority. Most resumes are ignored if they don't have a degree, or at least a suitable diploma; unless it is replaced with years of experience.  I'm under the assumption that since education is so important in Europe, that it is similar there too.  <oversimplification>We didn't have the dot-bomb that USA did, especially in Silicon Valley where in the late 90s they would hire anyone that still had a pulse. </oversimplification>

Of course now with the dot-com boom over, there isn't the same demand in the USA anymore, and I imagine their standards have gone up accordingly.  Hell, even here in western Canada it's becoming a employee's market because of worker shortages right now.  This means that managers have to lower their standards to get enough people.  

MasterPlanSoftware:

when other people don't spend the money and get the same, or better job would be the ones who lack the mindset. 

How the fuck does not having a college degree get you a better job? "Oh, this guy didn't go to college, he must be way better than somebody with the fortitude to get a degree!"

MasterPlanSoftware:

Not understanding ROI is pretty common around here, but you would think more people in RL would have a better understanding.

People with college degrees earn, on average, nearly a million dollars more in their lifetime than those with only a high school diploma. Explain to me again who doesn't understand ROI?

MasterPlanSoftware:

Why? Since when is a degree required to be a developer?

Without commenting on the can-of-worms that is "do you need a degree to be a good developer", I'll just note that most development job *postings* require degrees.  As such, and otherwise, most people in those positions have degrees.  And that's Skippy's premise -- simply that they have the degree.  Whether that makes them a Better Developer (TM) is not the point here.

AssimilatedByBorg:

Doesn't mean I think devs should be rotated into tech support for a significant length of time.  But walking a mile in someone else's shoes (be it tech support, QA, or even (shudder) sales) can be very enlightening.

Maybe if the company makes it clear that this is a temporary thing just to give the developers some sense of understanding, but even then, you do it for like 3 days or so and then go back to developing.

 

MasterPlanSoftware:

Really? How valuable was that first degree you got?

In fact, one of the reasons I got my current job was my extensive knowledge of advanced mathematics I gained from my first, engineering degree.

MasterPlanSoftware:

other people don't spend the money and get the same, or better job

Hey take it easy.  I know I wouldn't have a job right now if it weren't for college.  I dropped out of college two times, but finally finished and now I have a good job. I just kept looking at my coworkers at the jobs I took to get through college (waiting tables, washing dishes).  I said "I don't want to do this at that age.  I'm finishing college," and I did.

The skills weren't the issue.  I got the sk33ls.  It's the horrible couch potato laziness that I got over in college and couldn't have gotten over any other way.

bstorer:

People without college degrees lack the proper mindset for good development. They haven't been taught the theory, just the practice

 

Depends on where to you go to college/university.   Where I went, we were barely taught "practice".  The vast majority of what I was taught was theory.  And my school sucked compared to some of the other more renowned schools.

And when you say college do you mean 2 or 4 year degree?

 

Edit: I think I read your original post completely back-ass-wards.  Just ignore me :P

skippy:

Depends on where to you go to college/university.   Where I went, we were barely taught "practice".  The vast majority of what I was taught was theory.  And my school sucked compared to some of the other more renowned schools.

And when you say college do you mean 2 or 4 year degree?

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?! YOU AREN'T MAKING ANY GODDAMN SEN--

skippy:

Edit: I think I read your original post completely back-ass-wards.  Just ignore me :P

Oh.

skippy:

and I imagine their standards have gone up accordingly.

 

If your 'standards' include requiring a degree, than you are an idiot.

First of all, enlighten me.. what does a college educations has to do with a Microsoft Certification? This is a real question.. no sarcasm or anything.. I'm just ignorant, since I have never had any CS or  formal education on anything IT or computer. 

Now about College-higher education, by itself only proves that one passed the institution requirements to get the title. So I do think that if they are "demoting" anyone, with or without degree,  from developement to tech support, there must be a good reason...

belgariontheking:

The skills weren't the issue.  I got the sk33ls.  It's the horrible couch potato laziness that I got over in college and couldn't have gotten over any other way.

 

This is usually the bigger issue, even if it isn't verbalized within companies.  A degree shows the ability of someone to stick with something for at least 4 years.  It shows that they are set on bettering themselves and it shows that they have a desire to learn.  

 

/for extra credit, what should the grammar nazis be attacking me for on the above sentences?